[Cam rant]

[taimatsu]

AAaaaaarrgh!

This idea of a Special General Meeting, or whatever... Yes, but NO.

We can't discuss the YoF, because we still know almost nothing about it and what comes next. It's like being handed a box wrapped in brown paper and told 'in here is either a bomb that will kill the entire society with a painful disease, or a huge box of really nice chocolates. You have to take it, pretty much, and we're not telling you which it is.'

Okay, the analogy's pretty poor, but realistically, our options are

a) run YoF, whatever it's like, and stay global and so on, suck up whatever the global organisation tells us and carry on into the new setting

b) don't run YoF and prepare to be in serious breach of the affiliate agreement, hence needing to leave the global society.

That's a pretty big decision, and we seem to be being forced to make it before we know anything about the plans. I can't describe how much I hate this entire thing.

Anyway, if we have an SGM it's going to get bogged down in rules lawyers. This stuff about the Tome - I thought we had a Tome committee? Why can't we let them get on with it, and just have a report from them, or something? GOD, PEOPLE ARE STUPID.

Comments

[suave-steve.livejournal.com]

If we have one at the end of November than according to the MST's own timetable we should have a lot more info on the progression of the YoF by then. He intends to release plot overviews etc in Sept.

As for what comes next this will still be a massive grey area and laible to large amounts of scaremongering true.

The stuff about MC and Tome is being pushed as it always is by the concerned pressure groups.

The thing about a meeting is we need to have one at some point soonish if only to address the concerns of members who are thinking of walking, so we can either try to keep them, or we can all walk together.

The key thing is it would have to be tightly regulated like a proper meeting, with set times and less space for rambling arguements to develop in the audience and thus take up all the time like at the last AGM.

However something has to be done to quell people's concerns and to address them before we lose whole games and regions to confusion and doubt.

[taimatsu]

The thing about a meeting is we need to have one at some point soonish if only to address the concerns of members who are thinking of walking, so we can either try to keep them, or we can all walk together.

Yes, I see what you mean, but I don't see how we can do this.

I'm a player with concerns, right? I'm going to be standing up in that meeting and saying 'I'm afraid we're going to lose a very good national chronicle for something that could be really crap, without even enough time to prepare properly.' What are our National officers going to say to that? Most other people are afraid of exactly the same thing, and short of telling me what's coming next, which no-one can do, they can't reassure me.

[suave-steve.livejournal.com]

Yeas I know it looks bleak.

However sometimes its just a case of things being seen to be done that can have a reassuring effect.

Simply being honest and saying we don't really have any information to pass on becuase we haven't been given any by the MST or WW gives the membership something to go, even if it's just the indication that no one cares enought to give them any insight.

Personally all the current debacle is proving is that the concerns of the memebrship about YoF and beyond don't appear to matter to WW et al. Of course they do matter to them on some commercial basis but it's only a small commercial basis. The appearance is that people are going to be railroaded into YoF and WoD2 whatever they want and it's that appearance that is causing the damage.

[taimatsu]

But we've said all that on UKG. Do we have to have a meeting to say 'Sorry, we've nothing more to tell you'?

[suave-steve.livejournal.com]

No we need a meeting in a couple of months to say - either yes we have new info, or no more info has been given and then to make a decision based on whichever of those is the case.

[taimatsu]

Assuming we have no more info, what would we do?

We'd have to decide either yes we want to do this thing we know nothing about, or no, we want to cause major ructions and leave the global Cam. not fun.

[suave-steve.livejournal.com]

No it won't be fun either way really.

But sooner or later someone will have to make that decision.

[bringeroflight.livejournal.com]

'I'm afraid we're going to lose a very good national chronicle for something that could be really crap, without even enough time to prepare properly.'

"We all have that concern. I see two actual options - start a new troupe chronicle after the current one finishes, or 'snapshot' the current one and restart it as a troupe. Splitting the continuity straight away and not running the global plot will cause quite considerable issues and cause a lot of bad feelings and a possible split. At least with the snapshot option we may end up standing up at the end and saying 'my God, that was godlike! Let's start something new' and starting a new Changeling chronicle. Of course, we could ALSO say 'My God, that sucked, lets have our old chronicle back!' A snapshot provides the chance to take "insurance" out and then far more safely 'seeing how things go'..."

Thoughts?

[taimatsu]

I don't think it works to stop a story in the middle and then try to re-start it. Stories as we play them just don't work that way. I think, with Changeling, since there is close to no crossover with other venues, we should, if nothing else, wait to run any YoF events till we know what they are and what is coming after. We should delay it. That would take the venue out of national continuity with other venues and possibly with the world.

The official plan seems to be 'Changeling is dead.' Since we're not getting anything new to replace it, running an apocalypse would lose us all our backgrounds, characters, and plots *for no reason* other than WW's marketing strategy. I've not been playing very long, and I definitely don't want to lose my character and the games I enjoy for as crap a reason as that.

Australia is planning to run Changeling no matter what else they do, but I don't know how.

I don't like the idea of a snapshot - characters change drastically in events like the Apocalypse and it might be hard to go back from 'battle-weary cynical Boggan' to 'fluffy shiny happy Boggan'. See what I mean?

[bringeroflight.livejournal.com]

I'm strangely optimistic about the YoF. For Changeling, it might perhaps be the impetus needed for a national game again.

On the other hand, international play is about all I'm able to do with Zubin at the moment, so I may as well just retire him if we split into a national chronicle.

[omentide.livejournal.com]

A report from the Tome Committee (should such a thing exist) would be nice.

An SGM is probably impractical. I'm not sure if we have anyone available who can control such a meeting and keep it to agenda.

Everyone wants to speak with their own voice. No chance of sending representatives.

There are other solutions, which are being pursued. And, once we have an NST in a position to sign the NDA, I think there will be more information (though he/she might not be able to share it).

[taimatsu]

AIUI, Robert *has* signed it, and is subject to it, but hasn't got much info at all at the moment, whether or not it's things he's allowed to mention. Perhaps you didn't mean that, though.

[omentide.livejournal.com]

Interesting.

Unfortunately I know things I can't talk about either. Matter of respecting confidences.

[taimatsu]

My information may be out of date, that was some weeks ago. Things may change now he is just standing in.

[omentide.livejournal.com]

Ahhh.

I mailed you anyway. Sorry.

[raggedyman.livejournal.com]

I think the problem is that everyone has their own opinion on what the best course of action is so everyone is trying to force things to go the way they want it to. The whole YoF has acted as a wonderful mirror on the org and more and more I'm looking at the camuk and wondering if its actually worth saving it or if its worth the hassle to keep half the people involved happy.

People want an egm to argue and bully through their opinion
People want an egm to try and logically put forth and debate their opinion. People want an egm to show how daft the tomb is, others dont as they want to show how it can work. some just want it so they can feel all special and others just cant be assed either way.
imo give em enough rope to hang themselves

and yes I do know this all sounds very negative but I dont really know if I care enough about the bunch of apathetic selfserving egotistical effortless glory mooching cock monkeys that appear to be making up the bulk of our gloriouse org.

hurm... maybe that sounded bitter
A whole bunch of the folks in the cam are very cool, I dont hate everyone in it. I'm just annoyed with the afore mentioned cockmonkeys and wish that the YoF and all that could somehow drown them but leave the useful/pleasent/non cock-monkey people all fine and dandy

[taimatsu]

I agree, mostly. I don't care one bit about the wider organisation. Sure, it would be nice if it worked, and I'm not putting down those people who do try to make it work. If I could play my current games with the people I enjoy RPing with, without being bogged down in this organisation, I would. National scale is quite nice to have - anything above that I don't give a flying ferret. That's why I'm so irritated by this, because it's coming from a super-national level and hence seems totally unnecessary to me.

My ideal situation:

We disaffiliate. We carry on playing till all the YOF books are out and the new setting is being published. Then we decide whether we want to play any or all of it. In the intervening period we can have been looking at ways to run different settings concurrently, or whatever. We lose the global game, but what % of players care about that? Nowhere near 100% and probably not even 50%.

[taimatsu]

I don't know what we can do. I think we just don't know enough to make this at all useful. The only way this could be useful is if we had enough info, and functioning, sane National officers who could stand up and say 'If we carry on with YoF, THIS is what will happen THEN, and then THIS, and then THIS, and then THAT. Then we'll need to do THIS OTHER NEW THING and not have any more of THAT. Do you like it? Yes or no.' That is all.

As it stands, it's all open to personal interpretation. There are too many possibilities and Nothing Will Get Done. I predict it, and I bet I'm right.

[davedevil.livejournal.com]

By November we should be a lot more briefed on what goes on, there will still eb a lot of isuses on wether we run or don't, whether we go or stay, or what we do to.

There is also a hell of a lot fo genral stuff which needs ot be sorted for the society.

It probably will not be the only one in the next 12 months either, but somethign this big should be discused frequently .

Go for it on the trustee and comittee stuff though Lucy!

[taimatsu]

problem is quorum. Tome: 14) The quorum at any Annual General Meeting shall be no less that 25% of the existing members of the society.

We don't have an up-to-date membership database (and don't get me started on *that* one) so we don't know what number represents a quorum. Even if we make a guess at it, I don't think we can reach it. We didn't last time, and that meeting had the flipping National attached to it. This one doesn't have a game at all. Not enough people care that much. People assume someone else will be there.

IF we are not quorate, no motions we vote on will be technically applicable, because not enough people made the decision. If the quorum is 111 people and we have 109 people, and we decide to do X, it's the same as if five people decided to do X - still not enough.

To actually have this SGM anyway, either the National Officers; committee needs to tell Tracey to call it, or we have to have 20% of the membership sign up. To do that, first you need to know how many that is, and then for the meeting to be viable, you need to get way more than that. 20% isn't a quorum, and they won't all turn up anyway. You have to allow for the dropout rate.

Oh yes, and changing the Tome will be flipping difficult.

23) The rules of the society may be altered by the general membership at an Annual General Meeting or Special General Meeting convened for the purpose. The proposer and seconder of any proposed alteration shall give notice in writing to the Secretary at least Two (2) months prior to any such meeting. The decision on any such proposed alteration shall be by a two-thirds majority of eligible voting members.

So, if this is the end of November we're talking for the SGM, people have to submit motions for changes by the end of September, which I think is before we get much more information about all this. Most major decisions we could make here are going to require some Tome changes. This is ridiculous.

Not only that, but the decision on any changes is made, not my the members present at the meeting, but by "a two-thirds majority of eligible voting members". Great. Any Tome change, and we have to ballot *everyone*. That's what it says. (Once again, we don't know what a majority is, because the membership database blah blah blah. Can I kill certain officials yet?)

I think we're screwed.

[davedevil.livejournal.com]

its not good at all.. the toem is a bloodynoose more often than not.. :(

[taimatsu]

But we have it, so we have to work with it. If you don't, someone can come along after and say 'Ah, but you didn't follow the RULES! So all the stuff you did is invalid! Muahahaha!' And you know in this society people will.

[davedevil.livejournal.com]

yes.. they will :(

there is apetition form I can snedn to you if you like, get a smany cammies as you can to sign it so the meeting can be called. Even if they don't make it they can proxty votes and the like..

[taimatsu]

I think the meeting is a bad idea. I will come if you have one though. See below for my take on the damn petition.

[taimatsu]

Since you are a leading light in this proposal, what is your take on the issue of the quorum? How are we going to get one? How will you make people come to a meeting with no game? And what will we do if the meeting is not quorate?

[raggedyman.livejournal.com]

not pointing fingers but would you rather have a set of rules (badly written though they may be) or no rules at all?

[taimatsu]

I'd prefer to have the rules, but I wish there was a sane way to change them.

[davedevil.livejournal.com]

a badly written set is a start Andy, but the difficiult yto repaire issues in them worrys me incredibly..

[raggedyman.livejournal.com]

and me

[chrisvenus]

We don't have an up-to-date membership database (and don't get me started on *that* one)

I'd actually be interested to get you started because I thought we *did* have an up-to-date memebership database. Before the national we ran big elections and all the membership data was collected from all the DCs to create a register of people who could vote which by my understanding is the same as the people who are members. This was then passed on to the A?NC officers (or at least that was the intent) to check against what was an out of date database.

I'm interested to know where this process is flawed or where it fell down.

[taimatsu]

The NST has not been sent a membership list by the C-chain, though it was requested a long time ago. I don't know why not, but somewhere there is a problem.

[borusa.livejournal.com]

I couldn't possibly comment. Gordy and Kevin did a great job on the election.

Deaffiliation

[zenmeisterin.livejournal.com]

That Affiliation agreement implies we can't deaffiliate for at least 3 years after the signing date. We'd have to dissolve the CamUK (or quit it en masse) and start up a totally nre org with a new structure (Tome being copyright, as are the rules supplements etc). And what about the chronicel, the games, the backgrounds, the plots, the settings, the timelines etc. ect. - who owns that?

Deaffiliation looks like it'd just shatter the Cam and that would be that ;-(

Re: Deaffiliation

[taimatsu]

There's nothing in it about deaffiliating. So either we can't at all, or we are alreay deaffiliated because we're in breach of it on a couple of points (CBA to look up what they are, but I checked a couple of weeks ago).

I don't know about the IP stuff. I don't know what we can do. I think - wasn;'t there a case where some guy withdrew his plot after the afiliation because he didn't like the agreement, and WW had to let him? If I'm right, that'd say that things people created are their own, not WW's, but I don't know for sure. Can't remember if the agreement covers that.

Re: Deaffiliation

[raggedyman.livejournal.com]

Deaffiliation looks like it'd just shatter the Cam and that would be that ;-(

sounds about right imo, not that valid an option. I can see the org splitting into affiliated and non affiliated but the whole thing moving would just be a huge mistake

Re: Deaffiliation

[taimatsu]

In that case, there is no need for all this stuff. If we are affiliated we have to keep our game in line with the international game. The US is running the YoF on the MST's timetable, and they ahve more members that everyone else put together. We have to run it, like it or not, and do as the guy says, unless we disaffiliate. That's the bottom line.

[taimatsu]

Christ that petition is bad. I'm not posting this to UKG because I'd look silly, but ARGH. I have to let it out.

It isn't an EGM, it's an SGM. These are convened for a purpose. The declared purpose 'to decide the fate of the society' is really crap, and should be more specific. It's 'we the undersigned' not 'undersign'. Give me five minutes and I could come up with something better. Please, God, give me officers who are not illiterates. Please.

[omentide.livejournal.com]

S'OK.

Whatever gets posted to the file section will be decently edited. No one is deliberately dyslexic.

Oh, and I agree it needs to be more specific. I can't do much about that.

[taimatsu]

I wonder if I could post *that* bit to UKG.

What would be better? *thinks*

'... a special general meeting to discuss recent information from WW, hear the views of the National Officers on it, and make any decisions consequent on these discussions.'

That prevents the *purpose of the meeting* (which is quite important in Tome) from being to actually decide what we're going to do. Because I don't think we can do that.

Opinions?

(Trouble is, everyone would have to sign the same thing, or someone could say they didn't want a meeting for this purpose of that purpose, but for some other purpose.)

[omentide.livejournal.com]

That IS precisely what is going to happen. I mean everyone will want the meeting for a different purpose.

Assuming such a meeting happens, there will be no firm agenda and no firm chairing. I suspect it will also be inquorate. If it happens, I will probably end up giving up doing something I actually want to do in order to attend.

I think, though, that we have to try. Otherwise people think that no one is listening.

Perhaps, for a meeting location, I might suggest Cloud Cuckoo Land?

I may feel better later.

[taimatsu]

I'm giving up hope. I don't see how we can fix this society. It's too unwieldy for any one group of officers to manage.

I'm wondering, if it turns out that the Wo? has no changelings, about splitting off the Changeling venue into some kind of independent Changeling LARP. That'd be smaller and more manageable, right? *sigh*

[omentide.livejournal.com]

I think this is likely to happen.

I think we try to run too many 'venues'. Instead of asking 'how can we run the Cam/Anarch game WELL', we jump up and say 'Hey, lets run xxxxx whatever the new craze is'. Then we get crossover issues no one really thinks through before someone has a problem with them then....

[taimatsu]

I barely play C/A. I am primarily a Mage and Changeling player. So I don't care about doing C/A well, and I like the breadth the society has. IF people just want to do C/A, other societies do that too. I don;t know where else I'd go for the games I like.

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

I'm so glad I never went into politics. Erm, hang on...

[taimatsu]

Any advice, tipd, books you can suggest on writing rules for societies and how to keep them from being crap and loop-hole-full?

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

Not as such. Give them to someone of my generation from the Union Bar and say 'how would you exploit this'...