Random paranormal poll

[taimatsu]

I randomly thought I'd post this. I'm just interested to see what the response is. Comment is you want to tell me *what* you think these things do, or anything else about the subject.

[Poll #172740]

Comments

[robinbloke.livejournal.com]

All self delusion and coincidence as far as I'm concerned. There is no magic beyond science.
Then again, I'm ready to accept I could be wrong, as I believe everyone who believes in this stuff is - if they can prove it ;)

[lnr]

How come you've put runes and I Ching together?

[taimatsu]

Because I ran out of options, was doing it very fast, and considered they were two things people might tick one or the other of, but not both. If you (or anyone) was going to tick both, you're welcome to say so :)

[borusa.livejournal.com]

Interesting. I think that it is possible to gain some kind of insight into dreams - there's decent psychology that suggests that dreams are an important part of the mind's activities.

However, most popular "dream analysis" is bunk.

[robinbloke.livejournal.com]

That I'd agree with; psycology for dreams, but not future portents and suchlike.
I answered on the basis for 'supernatural' type belief in the items.

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

As per my answers, I'm dubious about the word 'supernatural', but I'll live with it as a shorthand for 'things that work in a way we don't fully understand or in a way which is debated'

Also then reflexology (works), homeopathy (psychological as far as I'm concerned), aromatherapy (fairly agnostic on this).

[bopeepsheep.livejournal.com]

Aromatherapy, IMlimitedE, works. I was sceptical but it's routinely offered in Delivery Suite at the JR, and I thought it couldn't hurt. I had lavender and jasmine for relaxation (works, think: relaxing into a nice scented bubble bath) and peppermint for nausea (works incredibly well - clutching an impregnated strip of card to my nose during contractions really did make a difference to how sick I felt). Later, going into surgery, I had Frankincense which is supposedly for "introspection" and calm, and that really did help me focus and stay calm while being pulled about...

[raggedhalo.livejournal.com]

This poll would be easier to answer if it weren't for the word "supernatural." I don't believe in feng shui's supernatural efficacy, I believe in its natural efficacy, based mainly on my experience of messed-up crazy headspace from having an untidy room compared to the joy of a house optimised for living.

[chrisvenus]

But feng shui *is* supernatural isn't it? what you're describing is jut tidying your room, not performing feng shui. If you said that you would happily live in an untidy room since you put a yellow circle on the eastern wall to harness the positive life bringing energies of the rising sun then I would concede its supernatural.

So yeah, feng shui may have some benefits from a certain point of view but I think the whole point (as I read it) is that its a question on whether you believe in supernatural stuff and if so what.

[raggedhalo.livejournal.com]

I think, like elements of Buddhism, there's a lot of straightforward psychology to a lot of supernatural stuffs. For example, while I don't believe dreams are good for divination of the future, if you know someone quite well you can use their dreams to gain an insight into their subconscious.

[chrisvenus]

Oh yeah. I quite agree that dreams can tell you stuff and that there is a psychological backing to a lot of things that lucy mentioned (though I haven't got the list up so I am not sure how many). However that is not supernatural, its psychology. Therefore I agree with what you originally said that I don't believe in supernatural benefits but I might believe in natural benefits. However, that wasn't really her question (IMHO).

And care to expand on the buddhism comment? I know very little about it but the comments that some of it is just psychology intrigues me...

[raggedhalo.livejournal.com]

Well, Zen/anicca is kind of supported by memetics -- the acceptance that we're just an aggregation of genes and memes all vying to replicate themselves and that, as we're just vehicles, a lot of the stuff that goes on in our lives is geared to that, is very similar to the realisation of impermanence that anicca/Zen moments kinda require.

[taimatsu]

Of course, I agree that plenty of these things do have an effect; I believe that's due to a psychological or placebo effect, however. For example, feng shui, tidy house, obviously good. Dreams, your subconscious/things you're worrying about, and so on. Things which involve colour or scent can have an effect on people - some colours and smells are particularly calming, for reasons we don't quite understand but which I am sure are not *supernatural* as in unexplainable except by Big Magic Forces or Higher Beings or whatever. Rituals and chants and spells can probably have a psychological effect on people quite apart from any actual *magic* they believe they're doing.

But I don't believe that any of these things actually do tap into anything outside ourselves. The poll was intended to ask whether people did believe those things tapped into something outside ourselves and our own minds.

[taimatsu]

As I understand it, feng shui is a way of arranging your living space for optimal energy (chi) flow. Obviously some of that works whether you believe in it or not (things like space between objects, calming colours, green plants, whatever). Other bits of it are less obvious, things like using mirrors on the outside of your home to reflect bad energies (in particular situations) and being careful where you put your wastepaper basket.

If you use the principles just to declutter your house, but don't believe in the chi-flow aspects of it, I'd say that's not to do with any supernatural efficacy of the technique, just practical minimal living, or whatever.

[raggedhalo.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I guess. But maybe there's a placebo-type effect in there too?

[crocodilewings.livejournal.com]

Feng shui has some basic practical/spatial/ergonomic validity, enshrouded in ritual and mysticism, jade dragons, spirit winds and the like in order to be more permeative of its culture of origin and to explain its functionality without having to actually know the real reasons behind it.

Dowsing (as opposed to vanilla divination) has an awful lot of compelling scientific explanations and experimentation pointing to it having some form of validity, although not enough to actually conclude a yea or nay one way or the other.

Dream interpretation has varying levels of psychological significance attached to it, based around emotional arousal cycles and elements of subconscious imagery, yet most of the precognitive/clairvoyant experiences with it are well within statistical likelihood of fluke and rationality, and there are enough examples of non-precogniscent dreams (see "billions, every sodding day") to put serious holes in any argument counter to it.

I don't believe in magic, and my star sign is Skeletor.

[spikydavid.livejournal.com]

Sorry, dowsing, did you say? The whole bent stick thing? The single part of the supernatural that has been most debunked?

Holding a dowsing stick means that the slightest difference in posture, or anything, will make the stick move. Good water dowsers are experience at spotting areas of ground that probably have water under them, and, pretty much subconsciously, twitch when they see it, and the sticks move. Experiments to prove this work by blindfolding the dowsers, and noting that they have no better than random success rate, in places where, when they can see, they do well at.

[crocodilewings.livejournal.com]

There's more to the broader subject of dowsing than just dowsing rods, which tend to get souped up in too much pseudo-science for their own good. It has, however, been a long time since I've read anything on the subject, and so I find myself unequipped to discuss it in its entirety at this time.

[kaet.livejournal.com]

I don't really know what supernatural means. I've often considered this a failing on my part. I guess I don't think it likely that these things literally, in the world of stones and the like, obey hidden laws, but I put very little weight on that. We're not stones, after all.

exposition

[liriselei.livejournal.com]

like beingjdc & raggedhalo, i'm dubious about the word supernatural - in my case, because it implies that divination/magic/etc. are somehow separate from nature rather than being a part of it. and also because a large portion of many of the above is psychosomatic (but then, isn't everything ?)

as far as the divinatory tools and methods go (and indeed most other magical tools as well) - my take is that none of them are effective in themselves, only as enablers. on a certain level of consciousness (not the right word, but the closest i can think of) all thought and energy is one, and independent of time - divination and the like is where we tap into the parts of our mind that are able to communicate with this level of consciousness. however, most of us have been conditioned to believe that such things are impossible, and so it's easier to believe that the tools are doing the work instead - thus rather than directly foreseeing knowledge of future events, we interpret an allegedly randomised pattern. i used to use runes, tarot and I Ching, nowadays i mostly try to use augury instead.

horoscopes/astrology - most of the universe consists of electromagnetic fields, and our planet is part of a system with a star, eight other planets and numerous moons, each with a huge electromagnetic field. how can the alignments and interactions of all these electromagnetic fields not affect the development of the embryo ? not to mention seasonal variations in diet, temperature, humidity, light levels, etc. all affecting the mother during pregnancy. astrology, to me, is a way of codifying the interactions of these fields and interpreting their effects using data accumulated over centuries of observation. though the popular sun sign forecasts most people see in the daily papers and think of as 'astrology' are so generalised as to be largely useless.

wishing/spells/rituals/etc. - as i've said before in various places, my take is that everything is energy and perception - belief shapes perception, we create our own realities. wishing, spells and rituals help focus the mind - the chaos magic holy trinity of intent, will & gnosis. mixed in with nudging probabilities, and some branching universe theory. difficult to explain how i see it without getting into a long winded discursion about temporal geometry, free will, etc. which i'm not even sure i could put into words, as large chunks of my understanding are intuitive or visual.

Re: exposition

[spikydavid.livejournal.com]

Not meaning to nitpick overly, but it is kind of unavoidable in this case. On your comments about horoscopes and astrology, there ain't no such thing as an electromagnetic field. There are magnetic fields, there are electrical fields, there are even magnetic fields generated by electromagnets (which are just magnets created by moving and electric current), but there ain't no electromagnetic fields.

As to your actual point that we can't help but be affected by something as big as Jupiter, due to the whole distance thing, the gravitic attraction of Jupiter (a) would be entirely cancelled out by the sun (which is big and (b) would be about the same as a 1 kg rock held 1 metre away. Distance squared is a big number. Which means that (a) we'd all just be in the sun bit of the astrological wotsits or (b) we'd actually have signs like concrete.

That's what we mean by supernatural, disobeying certain pretty basic rules that we understand about nature.

Re: exposition

[ixwin.livejournal.com]

how can the alignments and interactions of all these electromagnetic fields not affect the development of the embryo ?

Well firstly, I thought Earth was unusual in having a magnetic field, and that most planets didn't.

Secondly as electromagnetic force (like gravity)falls off with distance by an inverse square law, the electromagnetic forces exerted by people in the same room as the embryo will be orders of magnitude bigger than those of planets.

So even if there is some influence, it will be so swamped by earthly sources as to be indistinguishable.

I can however easily believe that seasonal light levels, diet etc would have a measurable effect on a developing embryo (as well as things like the psychological impact of always being amongst the oldest/youngest in your class at school)

[j4.livejournal.com]

I think a lot of them have psychological usefulness. I'm not sure where you'd draw the line between "supernatural" things, and things which work at a subconscious level and aren't fully understood.

Some of the things you've listed IMHO fall into the category of faith healing. If it works for you, great. I mean, there's no scientific evidence that Feng Shui realigns the natural karma of your possessions according to the planetary influence of blah blah blah (what-EVER), but if rearranging your room (whether in the belief that you're tapping into the cosmic wassname, or just in the belief that you'd like to rearrange your room!) makes you feel happier or more confident, then hurrah for that.

Most fortune-telling can be extremely useful as a tool of self-analysis -- your reaction to the "prediction" can tell you a lot about how you feel about your present, your future, your life in general.

I have no idea if there are Great And Powerful Forces who have nothing better to do all day than make sure people's yarrow stalks fall in the right configuration; or if there's some giant karma server in the sky where the config file /home/whoever/.fengshui gets updated every time you move your furniture... but as you can tell I'm extremely sceptical about the possibility. On the other hand, I think the human mind is a pretty amazing Great And Powerful Force, and I wouldn't even begin to claim to understand its workings, and blah blah blah sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

(I didn't fill in the poll.)

[bopeepsheep.livejournal.com]

Can I say there is *un*supernatural efficacy in some of them? They work for entirely plausible scientific reasons such as 'relying on people's subconscious minds' and so on. I would hate to put 'dream interpretation' into a 'supernatural' category, simply because it is sometimes a very clear case of working out one's fears and hopes while asleep. Anyone who's had pre-wedding, exam or baby dreams can attest to that...

I have issues with grouping "horoscopes" and "astrology" together too, mainly because what most people call 'horoscopes' aren't anything of the sort, as those who deal with 'astrology' know... :-)

Ummm yes ?

[kathminchin.livejournal.com]

I've done too many tarot readings and found the plot to say no...

Same with spells and rituals.

A lot of fortune telling is psychology though

[nevecat.livejournal.com]

Not answering poll because my answers rarely fit into neat yes/no answers - putting comments instead:

Ouija boards

Complete bollocks, IMO, and dangerous bollocks at that. People are often drunk when they use these, deliberately try to spook others, or are simply unaware that they're pushing the counter towards the next feasible seeming letter. Wouldn't go near them with a barge pole. Same generic 'ick!' factor an anoymous chain letters threatening great misfortune if not passed on, etc: harmless in terms of actual supernatural consequences, but people will still do stupid things when they're convinced of their 'bad luck'.

Feng Shui

Concerning, on a mundane level, the placement of objects etc in the house for the optimum flow of 'chi'. I have a feeling there are greater complexities/abstractions to it, but I'm afraid I don't know enough about these to comment.

As a flow of 'chi', I've got to say I don't believe in it. On the other hand, a philosophy that recommends the opening of windows to allow the flow of chi (airing the room, in other words ;), the closing of toilet lids to avoid the drainage of chi (cuts down on germs being flushed into the air & on bad smells!) and on table corners not pointing towards seating places (that would cut down opn bashed shins/hips then ;) has definite merits in my book from a room-planning point of view. Properly feng-shui'd rooms do tend to be far calmer places to be, though I'm not convinced this has anything to do with chi.

Palmistry
Horoscopes/astrology
Numerology

I've grouped these three together because they deal with interpretation of a relatively unchanging set of information (the lines on ones hands will of course change somewhat over time, but the information regarding one's birth is not going to change at all.).

Mmm. Not convinced that they say anything hugely profound. I've heard the opinion that astrology etc is much like a clock - by looking at it, one can gain some information, but that is likely to be limited to the fact that it's told you the time! With numerology, for example: when dates are purely based on the calendar one chooses to use, how can there be something absolute deduced about the person based on the maniuplation of such date?

The fact that interpretations vary so wildly also makes me skeptical.

[nevecat.livejournal.com]

[cont]

Tarot reading
Casting runes/I Ching
Divination (rods, pendulums, etc.)
Dream interpretation

As with feng shui, I'm discussing the more mundane/usual use of these. The meanings of the cards/runes/etc are generally abstract in theme, with the more concrete interpretation left to the reader. One can gain quite a bit of info from these, but that is often as much due to being able to 'read' the person asking the questions as anything profound about the cards. Does that make them a useful divination tool? Yes, in my opinion, since people usually *do* know the answers to their own questions, they just aren't always desparately good at teasing them out themselves, especially if it's not the easy answer that they want to hear. However, as with ouiji boards, there is possibility for abuse, either consciously of accidentally, from those who would like to consider themselves experts and aren't. Choose a tarot reader etc as cautiously as you would a counsellor, unless you're planning to just do it 'for fun', because at some level they're still poking your subconscious, and they often don't have the professional experience/qualifications that you would consider mandatory for a counsellor.

The use of tarot cards, runes, etc for meditation foci is an almost entirely different subject, and one I continue to read about with interest if not belief.

Stone or crystal use
Wishing
Spells of any kind
Rituals of any kind

These are such broad categories that there isn't really a good place to start, and again I think I'm going to have to split into the general view of such things & the more abstract/esoteric version.

Do I believe that by giving someone a piece of rose quartz she will be automatically lucky in love? No. It's just a bit of rock (although it's quite pretty and someone might think the colour of her pedant suited her & compliment her... ;)

On the other hand, do I think that by spending some time focussing *on* that piece of pink rock and considering some romantic problems a friend is having I'll magically know what I have to do to help her? *smiles* Nothing to do with being 'magic' - it's to do with taking the time and thought. They are *literally* foci (sorry to use Mage terminology, but WW nicked the existing words, the bastards ;) - things that can help people direct themselves more easily. In my opinion, it doesn't matter *what* you use to represent what, it's just a tool/physical metaphor after all, not anything intrinsic to the object.

Sorry, I don't know how clear all of that was, yell if you have questions....

[mhw.livejournal.com]

I do believe that many of these things are efficacious, but I don't find 'supernatural' to be a sensible concept. What is, is; if we haven't yet found a reason for something that exists, that hardly makes it anything other than 'not yet explainable'.

[spikydavid.livejournal.com]

As mentioned above, supernatural is a pretty good word for anything which is claimed to work whilst breaking several other laws of nature, for example, complete disregard of the inverse square law.

[ex-lark-asc.livejournal.com]

I find if I think about my dreams I can work out what the things in them symbolise for me (though none of that appears to be fixed over time) and work out from there what it says about the state of mind I'm in at the time.

I also think tarot can be a tool for giving your subconscious a voice; looking at the associations you make with the images given the interpretation of the major arcana as steps on a human psychological journey, and so on.

[spikydavid.livejournal.com]

By the way, in case you couldn't guess, I'm something of a sceptic on these things, and my apologies to taimatsu for scribbling all over her comments page :(

[nevecat.livejournal.com]

No, really? ;)


C
(merrily sitting on the fence ;)

What does "supernatural" mean anyway?

[ewx.livejournal.com]

For instance, supposing that astrology actually worked, rather than being a confidence trick, what would make it "supernatural" rather than a merely fact about nature that we hadn't yet fully understood?