(no subject)

[taimatsu]

I have just had my first lecture of the year - the introductory session for Women's Writing 1. This involved defining feminism, mostly, and the horrible but not unexpected discovery that about six of the 60 predominantly female people in the room defined themselves as feminist. Gaaaaah!

Also Gaaaaaah was the thing where the lecturer was talking about an essay on basic feminism which discusses the terms 'feminist' 'female' and 'feminine', and dismissed biological sex - 'female' - as binary 'apart from a few hermaphrodites and things'. I was so cross. I know a variety of people who are women but for whom the biological clues to 'sex' are not straightforwardly female - whether that's because of a chromosomal disorder, or physical intersexedness, or being transsexual/transgendered. The lecturer has no idea if one of those people is in the room, and I was cross that she made them invisible and used what I suspect is rather an inappropriate term for the biologically different. She's my seminar leader so I might be able to tackle her about it tomorrow, though it's tricky when I'm not in that group myself.

Similarly, she was talking about the prevailing image of feminism as all about 'hairy humourless lesbians'; while it's *true* that that's what people think, what if I *had* been a hairy lesbian? It really sounded very dismissive, and her talk didn't make any compensatory mention of the contributions lesbian community has made to the women's movement.

I think I sound way too 'right-on' here, but then the whole point of the lecture was to make the girls who go 'eww, I'm not a feminist!' think again. Maybe it ought to make me think again about saying 'erk, I'm not one of those radical queer folks!' (Actually, I think I'm not, but I get the feeling if I make the fairly basic points above about sex and gender non-hegemony, I'll be thought of as one.)

It makes me nervous to think of saying any of this in a seminar, but I want that to be a safe(r) space where I can talk about, you know, lesbians and queer politics if it's relevant without being afraid to come out. *sigh*

Thoughts most welcome. Anyone got any experience with feminist literary criticism or feminist writing in general? I'm making this public so I can link to it in a community.

Comments

[madwitch.livejournal.com]

Could I just ask what's wrong with not self-defining as a feminist? I don't, I stopped doing so years ago when I realised that it was far too restrictive for what I believed. If people don't want to call themselves feminists, then surely that's up to them?

[taimatsu]

I don't interpret 'feminism' as a restrictive political position, so I'm not sure where you're coming from here. The position the lecturer took was that if you believe in, essentially, equal rights for women, you are quite probably a feminist.

[madwitch.livejournal.com]

See, I'd be quite annoyed by that. It is not down to A.N.Other to tell me what I am, even if that's only "quite probably" what I am. I am an egalitarian, and whilst equal rights for women is, of course, covered by that, I am not a feminist.

But again, what is wrong with not defining as a feminist?

[ifimust.livejournal.com]

While I firmly do define as feminist, I have to agree with you here. The whole POINT of second wave feminism was *choice* - giving women (and men) the ability to chose what to do, how to define themsleves.

If that means that "feminist" doesn't work for someone, telling them that they are a feminist, really, you just don't realise it... is insulting. It's up there with the anonymous Christian idea... and imposing the word "rape" on situations which the survivors themselves have not defined that way and I'll stop ranting now....

[madwitch.livejournal.com]

Exactly. How is it even slightly feminist for other women to tell me that I don't know my own mind?

If anything, it makes me step further away from identifying with feminism at all.

[wildeabandon.livejournal.com]

I do think that saying "I believe in equal rights for women* but I'm not a feminist" is a little bit like saying "I worship and follow Jesus Christ, but I'm not a Christian", or "I am attracted to, fall in love with, and have sexual relationships with both men and women, but I'm not bisexual". It's perfectly possible to be egalitarian and feminist.

What's wrong with not defining as feminism is that it helps perpetuate the idea that feminism is wrong, and to a lot of people that has the corollory that women having equal rights to men is wrong.

[1] - actually, that's not quite true - I think feminism also includes an awareness that we don't have equal rights yet.

[madwitch.livejournal.com]

I am an egalitarian. That includes equal rights for women, as it includes equality for all. I am not going to also self define as everything else it includes, so why define as feminist? Also, that's my choice, I choose not to, and anyone telling me I should is bordering on insulting. ifimust puts it very well, it is my *choice* to self define as egalitarian, and not as feminist. It is not anyone else's right to tell me that I am a feminist, or that I should define as one.

[wildeabandon.livejournal.com]

It is not anyone else's right to tell me that I am a feminist, or that I should define as one.

Fair enough - that's not really what I'm saying, I'm just saying that by vocally claiming not to be a feminist I think you're damaging the cause of equal rights for women, which you claim to support. You're entirely within your rights to do so, but I don't think it's a terribly consistent position.

[addedentry.livejournal.com]

It is not anyone else's right to tell me that I am a feminist

Why not? If you quack like a duck, you're entitled to claim that you're not a duck, but I'm just as entitled to refer to you as a duck, thanks.

[diffrentcolours]

I do think that saying "I believe in equal rights for women but I'm not a feminist" is a little bit like saying "I worship and follow Jesus Christ, but I'm not a Christian", or "I am attracted to, fall in love with, and have sexual relationships with both men and women, but I'm not bisexual".

You agree that it's a perfectly reasonable position then? :)

[wildeabandon.livejournal.com]

*chuckles* Reasonable isn't quite the word I'd used. Whilst I'm in principle I'm entirely supportive of people's right to self-define, I think all those statements are a bit daft.

[thursdaily.livejournal.com]

Curiously, I don't identify as a feminist, because of the association with people who would deny that I'm a woman, on the grounds of transsexuality. On the other hand, I do identify as Christian, despite a large number of evangelical Christians who would deny that I was on exactly the same grounds. I'm not sure quite how I justify the intellectual inconsistency involved there...

I shall have to think more about this.

[medland.livejournal.com]

Quakers don't belong to the world forum of churches for that exact reason.

[medland.livejournal.com]

I have extreme reservations about identifying as a feminist because if it were really all about equality, why is it called feminism?

That is my issue also.

[triskellian]

I have extreme reservations about identifying as a feminist because if it were really all about equality, why is it called feminism? The etymology is biased.
Because, although gender inequality hurts everyone, it has historically (and continues to) hurt women more than it has hurt men. The fight for gender equality is still mostly a fight to improve women's position.

[thursdaily.livejournal.com]

I used, once, to self-define as a feminist. Curiously, that was when I presented as male, at least to most of the world; I had no qualms about this, on the basis that I believed that women really should have equal rights.

Now that I'm able to live as a woman, I don't. Mostly, this is because of awareness of feminists like Germaine Greer, who go out of their way to make it clear that I am not, will not be, and never have been a woman. While she might be part of a minority, it's still a significant one as far as I can tell (or, at the very least, a very vociferous one). I can't identify with a group that denies my identity and existence, although I still believe just as fervently in equal rights for women. (I do have a slight tendency to think "maybe excluding me" on grounds of hypocrisy, though.)

[taimatsu]

Thank you, that's what I was trying to say.

[medland.livejournal.com]

According to the dictionary feminism is simply wanting equal rights for men and women - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/feminism

[andrewwyld.livejournal.com]

I know a bunch of people who are attracted to men and women alike but don't identify as bisexual.  Equally, a friend of mine knows someone who is attracted to men and women but has just decided she is a lesbian because now she likes oral sex with women.  People sort of call themselves all kinds of things without reference to the technical definitions.

[taimatsu]

I hasten to aedd here that I am not, clearly, suggesting that this lecturer's approach was a good one - as I hope is obvious from my problems with her attitude to gender issues. The difficulty is whether one is in a room full of people who are not defining as feminists because they, like you, have decided that another term better describes their beliefs, although they agree with the basic tenets of the historical feminist movement in relation to equality etc., or because in fact they have not thought about it much and have made assumptions about the hairy lesbian side of things. Lecturer was clearly assuming her audience fell into the latter group, which also sucks.

Personally, I believe there is not much or nothing wrong with not defining as a feminist; I would probably have issues with people who actually disagreed with the core concepts of feminism in terms of equal rights etc., but if your beliefs encompass other things and you want a broader term, of course that's fine. The only problem is when you have a group of people who say 'I am not a feminist' and you cannot distinguish between the people who mean that they are feminists-plus-other-things, and those who are actually not feminist and disagree with those ideas. I define myself as a feminist because I think it is useful for me to align myself very clearly with those ideals rather than using a less widely comprehensible term.

There is an argument that it is not helpful to avoid the term 'feminist' because if fewer people use the label it's easier for opponents to dismiss the women's rights movement. (The, er, solidarity with the sisterhood idea, I guess.) I do have some sympathy for that, but ultimately I agree with ifimust that the *point* is that you get to say what you are and neither I nor anyone else should impose a label on other people.

I may well have totally screwed up in talking about your position here - my apologies if so, and I hope you see what I mean and are not horribly offended.

[madwitch.livejournal.com]

Lecturer should have perhaps done more research to find out what kind of group she was facing, I think. Although I obviously agree with the core concept of feminism, it isn't the 'greatest inequality' (as someone else somewhere in here said) for me. To label myself a feminist when there are other things that I feel take precedence is also, to my mind, a bit hypocritical.

[taimatsu]

She probably thought she was facing some bunch of fluffy second-year English undergrads who are 19 and haven't thought about these things. Quite possibly some of the group fit that profile - but there are 60 of us, so clearly not all would, if any. *sigh* It's quite remarkable how uncomfortable she's left me feeling.

I do hope you're not feeling too got at in this discussion. I may not quite agree with the way you describe your views but I am entirely comfortable with your right to describe them as you wish :) Thank you for contributing.

[kissmeforlonger.livejournal.com]

(The, er, solidarity with the sisterhood idea, I guess.)

I wish all those people who described themselves as equalists would start an equalist movement, since the point of feminism to me is to make actual positive changes for the better in the lives of women and men, and not to piss about arguing about semantics :-P and as far as I can tell people with what I would term a feminist agenda have done a hell of a lot to change women's status.

*ahem* I guess it's obvious why I'm no longer involved in politics or theoretical work of any sort.

I define myself as a feminist without worrying too much what it represents to other people, partly to stand up and be counted *because actually that's quite important, you know*.

[taimatsu]

I define myself as a feminist without worrying too much what it represents to other people, partly to stand up and be counted *because actually that's quite important, you know*.

I am much of the same mind. I know there is a huge amount of disagreement about what feminism means and its connotations, and I am to be honest not well-informed about the details, but I do think that historically there have been enormous inequalities which the feminist movement has made great strides in overcoming, and I dislike the possible tendency to reject the label and implicitly ignore that history because of prejudices against the media image of feminists. Standing up and being counted is important for me. I want it to be recognised that there is still work for feminism to do.